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+---- Thread: Transfers and Pro/Rel: A Proposal (/showthread.php?tid=623)
- ColeMrtz - 2022-01-26
Hello SSL, it is I, your friendly neighborhood idiot who knows nearly nothing about football. I think I may have an idea on how to implement a transfer market and pro/rel in the SSL, however it's not exactly a gentle transition. Since pro/rel requires a few more teams to be feasible, let's start with the transfer market.
TRANSFERS
I hope none of you have grown attached to your teams (or for managers, your players) because this more or less is going to result in a total roster wipe. To start, you need to establish an economy (obviously), and this requires a little bit of research. To best illustrate my point, I'm going to look at Inter London FC and Hollywood FC, clubs who most likely will be on opposite sides of the spectrum here. I'm going to break this into three parts, Income, Injection, and Development. Income and injection are based heavily on your market. For example, Inter will see a high volume of income right out the gate, as Football is a huge market in England and London itself has a huge population. On the other hand, Hollywood would see a much lower income as the market for Football in America is substantially smaller and Hollywood is saturated with entertainment already. Balancing wages and transfers with the money you have coming in will make certain markets stronger than others in that regard. Then we have injection, and this is where every team's starting balance will come from. A market like Hollywood, while may struggle with their revenues, would see a huge injection to start as the market is difficult to get started in without a large wad of cash. This would give them a lot of flexibility in the transfer market, however balancing wages may be difficult or even require some gambles (this will come later). Meanwhile, Inter's injection could be equal or a touch smaller for different reasons. England is a football-heavy market and one of the most pricey in the world, meaning a large initial injection could be expected. I would like to state now that all of the things I have thrown forward haven't been researched very well, so my guesses could not line up with application whether it's from a balance perspective or me just being wrong. Finally, we come to development. This is where things get complicated. Team success is likely to bring in more fans, thus driving up revenues, and vice versa. However some markets are more difficult to grow than others, whether it is due to high barriers (i.e. low sport popularity in Hollywood) or volatile fanbases (i.e. a bad season in London could torpedo the fanbase), there will be teams that struggle to maintain their finances. There is also loyalty that will develop over time, however, building up a floor that the team can't sink below. This offers a bit of risk-reward as well, touching on Hollywood gambling earlier. A team that needs to build up revenue could go out and buy a player whose wages will slowly drain the club, but will bring them success in the short or long term. If it pays off, the club's success could help increase revenues to the point where the player becomes a permanent fixture, or simply allows for more wages to be paid without risking the club's future. With the economy more or less established, teams can now say goodbye to their rosters as an auction draft will take place to rebuild them. The auction draft is essentially teams offering contracts to these players, and the highest offer gets to sign them. New players go straight to market where clubs can make offers to them, and to ensure teams do not completely fall apart some mock FFP rules should be implemented. This ensures both that clubs will manage their finances responsibly and that they will have enough budget to sign new players. I know this is a VERY rough idea but I think as a framework it could be used realistically.
PRO/REL
Pro/rel requires a minimum of 12 teams, with future expansions being added to the lower league and expanding the promotion rules for that season to even them out.
The switch from a single 12 team league to a 6/6 split will see the first 12 team season follow these rules:
Top 4 teams: SSL Cup
Middle 4 teams: Relegation playoff, 2 go down
Bottom 4 teams: Automatic relegation
From there, the 6/6 split would be similar, maybe with the addition of a second-tier trophy so that teams not involved in either the cup or relegation playoffs would still be engaged. For example:
Tier 1:
Top 4 teams: SSL Cup
5th Place: Pro/Rel playoff
6th Place: Automatic relegation
Tier 2:
League Winner: Automatic Promotion
2nd Place: Pro/Rel playoff
Bottom 4 teams: Tier 2 Trophy
With added expansion teams, say 14 total teams, both new teams enter the second tier with new rules to balance the leagues at 7/7:
Top 2 teams: Automatic Promotion
3rd and 4th: Pro/Rel playoff, 1 goes/stays up
Bottom 4 teams: Tier 2 Trophy
Obviously, these rules would change as time goes on and the league expands, but that doesn't need to be immediately addressed. These ideas were thrown together without a lot of effort put into them, but if there is enough interest in the framework I'd be open to doing a bit of actual research and fleshing this out properly. None of this can be implemented easily so please don't take this as "This is what the league NEEDS to do", that would be unreasonable at best, I was just listening to Omni's pod with Canadice on Pro/Rel and thought I'd throw an idea out there.
- Zema - 2022-01-26
| QUOTE |
On the other hand, Hollywood would see a much lower income as the market for Football in America is substantially smaller and Hollywood is saturated with entertainment already. Balancing wages and transfers with the money you have coming in will make certain markets stronger than others in that regard |
First off, I think you need to forego reality for equality when it comes to creating an economic system with transfers. It would just become a very unfair playing-field and would probably not be an option.
I do think an economic system could be great. No more trades, just pure buying/selling. You are allowed to buy out the rest of someones contract if you either:
1. Pay someones release clause that is equal to what the contract states
2. Pay the remaining amount of money of the contract + a set fee for any transfer
The player will have to agree and sign a new contract as part of the transfer. Would also have to be some special rules surrounding rookies.
| QUOTE |
Pro/rel requires a minimum of 12 teams, with future expansions being added to the lower league and expanding the promotion rules for that season to even them out. |
Fully agreed.
| QUOTE |
The switch from a single 12 team league to a 6/6 split will see the first 12 team season follow these rules: Top 4 teams: SSL Cup Middle 4 teams: Relegation playoff, 2 go down Bottom 4 teams: Automatic relegation |
Playoffs would probably not be a thing. Instead you'd see everyone from both divisions compete for the SSL Cup, similar to how it's done in leagues using a Pro/rel system. Agreed on the rest.
| QUOTE |
From there, the 6/6 split would be similar, maybe with the addition of a second-tier trophy so that teams not involved in either the cup or relegation playoffs would still be engaged. For example: Tier 1: Top 4 teams: SSL Cup 5th Place: Pro/Rel playoff 6th Place: Automatic relegation Tier 2: League Winner: Automatic Promotion 2nd Place: Pro/Rel playoff Bottom 4 teams: Tier 2 Trophy With added expansion teams, say 14 total teams, both new teams enter the second tier with new rules to balance the leagues at 7/7: Top 2 teams: Automatic Promotion 3rd and 4th: Pro/Rel playoff, 1 goes/stays up Bottom 4 teams: Tier 2 Trophy |
Same as previously stated, SSL Cup for everyone and no playoff. No need for a Tier 1/2 trophy. Agreed on the rest.
My only other thing I would like is a draft. However, the draft is limited to the teams in the 2nd division. That way teams from below gets a good chance to reinvigorate their prospect pools either through selling players and garnering a transfer sum (which can potentially be bonuses for the remaining players maybe?) or some building blocks for future promotions.
I'm loving that you are bringing this forward for discussion.
- Sopath - 2022-01-26
Replying to @Zema here on two points.
1) Equality isn't necessary in the future open market. I think it's good to have prestige clubs like you do in real life. Teams like Barcelona, Man U, Real Madrid etc. that are rich and attract players. Those prestige clubs are mirrored by your mid tier clubs like Spurs, Fiorentina, Everton etc. And that mid tier is above your lower class like Burnley. Then you round off with yoyo clubs like Norwich. Historic team success is what put clubs in these tiers and tiers can be changed (i.e. Chelsea and PSG). As long as there is a path to being able to become a better or worse team inequality is okay. I highly recommend listening to the podcast I did with omni and Canadice where we discussed these topics.
2) I totally agree with having a draft and it just being for the lower tier. However I've stated that at some point we should allow teams to sell their draft picks on the open market. I explain how this can work in great detail on the pod.
- Zema - 2022-01-26
| QUOTE |
1) Equality isn't necessary in the future open market. I think it's good to have prestige clubs like you do in real life. Teams like Barcelona, Man U, Real Madrid etc. that are rich and attract players. Those prestige clubs are mirrored by your mid tier clubs like Spurs, Fiorentina, Everton etc. And that mid tier is above your lower class like Burnley. Then you round off with yoyo clubs like Norwich. Historic team success is what put clubs in these tiers and tiers can be changed (i.e. Chelsea and PSG). As long as there is a path to being able to become a better or worse team inequality is okay. I highly recommend listening to the podcast I did with omni and Canadice where we discussed these topics. |
I will give the podcast a listen, which episode is it? Tha said, I don't fully agree with this still. I think some teams will still gravitate towards becoming prestigeful and strong on their own without the need for an artifical advantage. Teams that you would want to play for and represent, who are powerhouses and are constantly challenging for a title.
It would end up becoming the SHL, where teams building from the ground up are shafted by those who have the most in assets. A real lack of parity which makes the league worse.
| QUOTE |
2) I totally agree with having a draft and it just being for the lower tier. However I've stated that at some point we should allow teams to sell their draft picks on the open market. I explain how this can work in great detail on the pod. |
This I can definitely get behind. Have different values for what a draft pick is worth that is set in stone.
- ColeMrtz - 2022-01-26
| QUOTE |
| Playoffs would probably not be a thing. Instead you'd see everyone from both divisions compete for the SSL Cup, similar to how it's done in leagues using a Pro/rel system. Agreed on the rest. |
Yeah I've heard that from a few people, just not a league structure I was familiar with. Who doesn't love a good upset though, would certainly be a fun idea.
| QUOTE |
| My only other thing I would like is a draft. However, the draft is limited to the teams in the 2nd division. That way teams from below gets a good chance to reinvigorate their prospect pools either through selling players and garnering a transfer sum (which can potentially be bonuses for the remaining players maybe?) or some building blocks for future promotions. |
That's also a great idea, makes the bottom tier a bit stronger over time. Hadn't even considered that idea before.
| QUOTE |
| It would end up becoming the SHL, where teams building from the ground up are shafted by those who have the most in assets. A real lack of parity which makes the league worse. |
I think you can make an inequitable league and have it still be fair and interesting. Especially when you incorporate a draft for tier-2, teams get better through rel and can work their way into contention over time. I understand the sentiment but I think it can be executed properly.
- Sopath - 2022-01-27
| QUOTE (Zema @ Jan 26 2022, 12:42 PM) | ||||
I will give the podcast a listen, which episode is it? Tha said, I don't fully agree with this still. I think some teams will still gravitate towards becoming prestigeful and strong on their own without the need for an artifical advantage. Teams that you would want to play for and represent, who are powerhouses and are constantly challenging for a title. It would end up becoming the SHL, where teams building from the ground up are shafted by those who have the most in assets. A real lack of parity which makes the league worse.
This I can definitely get behind. Have different values for what a draft pick is worth that is set in stone. |
I think I might've been a little unclear originally on the first point. I do not at all think we should be giving London some kind of injection of cash that is in anyway larger than what we would give Hollywood because IRL London's soccer market is bigger than LA. I think all teams should be treated as equals financially in the beginning. The idea would be that the original 10 teams or so would be considered the big historic clubs and they should all start with big stadiums and have the potential to be a prestige club. But yes in a way you are right it would resemble the SSL somewhat in that there are just those elite teams that everyone will want to play for, much like real life in the game. I think that's not exactly a bad thing. It's only a bad thing if a team cannot lose that status as being a club that everyone wants to play for once they achieve it. In the latest episode I go into some ways that we can create a system where there is dynamic and natural change while having these kinds of clubs. Teams will generate revenues and with that they have the option to buy developmental TPE that they can use to develop their players. For a prestige club to stay on top they'd have to find a way to fairly balance out the TPE they want to distribute among their players in way that will satisfy everyone while having to compete with clubs that could potentially distribute more developmental TPE to fewer key players. Someone like me, who just mainly cares about the LR, wouldn't make giant decisions based on developmental TPE but players who care about max earning will have to desire their ambition to be the best with their ambition to be on a prestigious team.