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Citizen of Adraa · 2022-07-25, 10:30 AM - Word count:

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (leatherneckmike @ Jul 25 2022, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Citizen of Adraa @ Jul 25 2022, 03:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Literal 1st rule of the rulebook "we can punish you for anything we think is punishable"<br><br>*does punishable stuff*<br><br>"there is no rule against that!"</td></tr></table><br><br><br>Please tell us what is punishable about following the rules?</td></tr></table><br><br>The rules were followed, that's true. However, BoD's job isn't to just enforce the rules, it's to make sure the league stays balanced and competetive for as many people as possible, meaning that if teams are actively using loopholes to actively damage other teams' prospects for success in the league, they are going to step in and try to control the situation otherwise, since the GMs won't do it themselves. Yes, it's on GMs to find all the advantages possible, and it's BoD's job to limit them from damaging the league in the process. Sydney's, and to an extent Catalunya's activities, have been detrimental to the health of the league, hence even though the rules are followed, the punishment is in place.<br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (twix @ Jul 25 2022, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Citizen of Adraa @ Jul 25 2022, 12:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Literal 1st rule of the rulebook "we can punish you for anything we think is punishable"<br><br>*does punishable stuff*<br><br>"there is no rule against that!"</td></tr></table><br><br>wow, great insight!</td></tr></table><br><br>thanks, I worked really hard to make that happen

trella · 2022-07-25, 10:39 AM - Word count:

In this league, managers have the responsibility to help improve the rulebook and identify any loopholes. We saw in SHL what happens if teams are freely allowed to abuse loopholes. The first line in the rulebook gives the BoD the power to give punishments in situations like this.<br><br>Yes, Sydney and Cata did what was technically best for the team. But it also unfairly screws 2 new expansion teams that will be set back by their decisions. Thats two whole team (22-30ish players) that have their experience worsened, and 2 teams that could potentially be perennial bottom dwellers. That isnt fun for them and it removes a bit of parity. Sydney GMs doubling down and admitting to exploiting the rules surely did not help their cause either, as well as personal attacks towards one of the expansion managers. I wholeheartedly support this decision, as I believe it makes the league healthier as a whole. <br><br>Sydney is still the league powerhouse in S6 and Cata will be a top team. Both of these punishments are very minor and are basically a slap on the wrist. Personally, I think this whole situation is blown way out of proportion. To Sydney and Cata players, I’m sorry if you feel slighted by this ruling but you have to realize that this league is supposed to be fun for ALL teams and ALL users, not just the ones on your team. Its one thing to do what’s in the best interest for your team, but its another to purposefully exploit a loophole to take away 2 expansion teams’ chances of being competitive out of the gate.

4D Chess · 2022-07-25, 11:25 AM - Word count:

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (trëlla @ Jul 25 2022, 11:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In this league, managers have the responsibility to help improve the rulebook and identify any loopholes. We saw in SHL what happens if teams are freely allowed to abuse loopholes. The first line in the rulebook gives the BoD the power to give punishments in situations like this.<br><br>Yes, Sydney and Cata did what was technically best for the team. But it also unfairly screws 2 new expansion teams that will be set back by their decisions. Thats two whole team (22-30ish players) that have their experience worsened, and 2 teams that could potentially be perennial bottom dwellers. That isnt fun for them and it removes a bit of parity. Sydney GMs doubling down and admitting to exploiting the rules surely did not help their cause either, as well as personal attacks towards one of the expansion managers. I wholeheartedly support this decision, as I believe it makes the league healthier as a whole. <br><br>Sydney is still the league powerhouse in S6 and Cata will be a top team. Both of these punishments are very minor and are basically a slap on the wrist. Personally, I think this whole situation is blown way out of proportion. To Sydney and Cata players, I’m sorry if you feel slighted by this ruling but you have to realize that this league is supposed to be fun for ALL teams and ALL users, not just the ones on your team. Its one thing to do what’s in the best interest for your team, but its another to purposefully exploit a loophole to take away 2 expansion teams’ chances of being competitive out of the gate.</td></tr></table><br><br>I see what you’re saying Trella but it’s odd to me the league is punishing Sydney for “screwing over the expansion teams” when there was an expansion team drafting IAs over active players that would’ve played with the team.<br><br>If BoD is suddenly in charge of what is/isn’t good GM’ing they should perhaps start there.<br><br>Again I get if they wanna close the loophole but retroactively punishing teams rubs me the wrong way.<br><br>Also I do think Sydney will be great this year but it’s worth noting that we are certainly not a “powerhouse” by any stretch. We haven’t won a title or cup, and we aren’t even first in team TPE currently.<br><br>You know I love you Trella so know that I’m obviously aware your arguments are in good faith - just playing devil’s advocate a bit

trella · 2022-07-25, 11:35 AM - Word count:

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (4D Chess @ Jul 25 2022, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (trëlla @ Jul 25 2022, 11:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In this league, managers have the responsibility to help improve the rulebook and identify any loopholes. We saw in SHL what happens if teams are freely allowed to abuse loopholes. The first line in the rulebook gives the BoD the power to give punishments in situations like this.<br><br>Yes, Sydney and Cata did what was technically best for the team. But it also unfairly screws 2 new expansion teams that will be set back by their decisions. Thats two whole team (22-30ish players) that have their experience worsened, and 2 teams that could potentially be perennial bottom dwellers. That isnt fun for them and it removes a bit of parity. Sydney GMs doubling down and admitting to exploiting the rules surely did not help their cause either, as well as personal attacks towards one of the expansion managers. I wholeheartedly support this decision, as I believe it makes the league healthier as a whole. <br><br>Sydney is still the league powerhouse in S6 and Cata will be a top team. Both of these punishments are very minor and are basically a slap on the wrist. Personally, I think this whole situation is blown way out of proportion. To Sydney and Cata players, I’m sorry if you feel slighted by this ruling but you have to realize that this league is supposed to be fun for ALL teams and ALL users, not just the ones on your team. Its one thing to do what’s in the best interest for your team, but its another to purposefully exploit a loophole to take away 2 expansion teams’ chances of being competitive out of the gate.</td></tr></table><br><br>I see what you’re saying Trella but it’s odd to me the league is punishing Sydney for “screwing over the expansion teams” when there was an expansion team drafting IAs over active players that would’ve played with the team.<br><br>If BoD is suddenly in charge of what is/isn’t good GM’ing they should perhaps start there.<br><br>Again I get if they wanna close the loophole but retroactively punishing teams rubs me the wrong way.<br><br>Also I do think Sydney will be great this year but it’s worth noting that we are certainly not a “powerhouse” by any stretch. We haven’t won a title or cup, and we aren’t even first in team TPE currently.<br><br>You know I love you Trella so know that I’m obviously aware your arguments are in good faith - just playing devil’s advocate a bit</td></tr></table><br>Once again, it is the responsibility of managers in this league to contribute to the rule making process, and also to help identify loopholes in the system so that the BoD can close them. The opposite was done here. Exploiting a loophole like this directly goes against a manager’s responsibilities to the league.<br><br>BoD has no control over who the expansion managers draft, I don’t really see now this argument makes sense in the context of this situation.<br><br>This isnt saying what is/isnt “good gming” its fair and ethical gming. I would say that what Syd and Cata did was actually good gming, but it was unfair and unethical<br><br>Even if sydney isn’t a “powerhouse” they brought in 3 really good players this offseason and will be one of the teams contending for the title.<br><br>Love u dude<br><br>

caltroit_red_flames · 2022-07-25, 11:43 AM - Word count:

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (leatherneckmike @ Jul 25 2022, 10:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zema @ Jul 25 2022, 05:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The biggest issue for me is that it hasn't been done in good faith. There might not be an explicit rule that has been broken, but you can rest well assured that Sydney would not like this to have been made common knowledge as they submitted their protection list. </td></tr></table><br><br>If we were trying to hide everything then why would I have told sparky exactly that i wasnt going to go there. If we were doing this in secret. Why wouldnt i have just told sparky id go so he would take me and not either LB or Cleetus who we left exposed. (the other expansion GM never reached out). This whole bad faith thing is very funny. <br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> A managers responsibility is not purely for the benefit of the team, but for the league as a whole. We work together to make sure that the league can grow into something even more amazing than it already is. Part of that is bringing up things that can be abused like this, and not try to abuse it. </td></tr></table><br><br>No, no it isnt. A managers responsibility is to the team. This isnt a collective big all fun sing and dance be happy love everyone. No, what we are trying to do is win titles. <br><br>Also by the way, the BOD wont bother to say Pau asked them about these things so they were very clearly stated as legal. (FA's open for expansion coming back). the BOD didnt have an issue till much later. They are also leaving out after the protection list got made they tried to make up a rule about no trade clauses and that got shot down by the GM's. <br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Some of the takes in this thread are completely failing to see the bigger picture. Do you want a better run league? Then help run it instead of trying to abuse the rules or cry about how unfair it is your team is getting punished for something that. This league is literally not even a year old. Things like this WILL happen and will probably keep happening. </td></tr></table><br><br>there are people in the BOD who have been apart of the bigger, more experienced, better run sim leagues who should know or could ask basic expansion rules like FA's not being allowed back. Instead of yelling at us for following the rules. how about you tell the board to make better rules for next time and to maybe go to a PBE or an ISFL expansion committee member who have been doing expansions for years and be like hey affiliated league. We are new to this. Any big issues with these rules? <br><br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Rashford, Canadice and the rest of BoD are doing an amazing job. They are doing so much more for the league than most of you seem to assume.</td></tr></table><br><br>Look i dont disagree they work hard as the BOD. I never said they were lazy etc etc. What im saying is, it is bad for a league to just punish teams that follow the rules. Fix them for later not retroactive. <br><br><br>Also, once again. I love how no one is noticing I have multiple times in this thread destroyed half the logic of this punishment that is was Pau and Van who orchestrated this.</td></tr></table><br><br>Some very good points in here.

leatherneckmike · 2022-07-25, 12:53 PM - Word count:

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (caltroit_red_flames @ Jul 25 2022, 01:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (leatherneckmike @ Jul 25 2022, 10:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zema @ Jul 25 2022, 05:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The biggest issue for me is that it hasn't been done in good faith. There might not be an explicit rule that has been broken, but you can rest well assured that Sydney would not like this to have been made common knowledge as they submitted their protection list. </td></tr></table><br><br>If we were trying to hide everything then why would I have told sparky exactly that i wasnt going to go there. If we were doing this in secret. Why wouldnt i have just told sparky id go so he would take me and not either LB or Cleetus who we left exposed. (the other expansion GM never reached out). This whole bad faith thing is very funny. <br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> A managers responsibility is not purely for the benefit of the team, but for the league as a whole. We work together to make sure that the league can grow into something even more amazing than it already is. Part of that is bringing up things that can be abused like this, and not try to abuse it. </td></tr></table><br><br>No, no it isnt. A managers responsibility is to the team. This isnt a collective big all fun sing and dance be happy love everyone. No, what we are trying to do is win titles. <br><br>Also by the way, the BOD wont bother to say Pau asked them about these things so they were very clearly stated as legal. (FA's open for expansion coming back). the BOD didnt have an issue till much later. They are also leaving out after the protection list got made they tried to make up a rule about no trade clauses and that got shot down by the GM's. <br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Some of the takes in this thread are completely failing to see the bigger picture. Do you want a better run league? Then help run it instead of trying to abuse the rules or cry about how unfair it is your team is getting punished for something that. This league is literally not even a year old. Things like this WILL happen and will probably keep happening. </td></tr></table><br><br>there are people in the BOD who have been apart of the bigger, more experienced, better run sim leagues who should know or could ask basic expansion rules like FA's not being allowed back. Instead of yelling at us for following the rules. how about you tell the board to make better rules for next time and to maybe go to a PBE or an ISFL expansion committee member who have been doing expansions for years and be like hey affiliated league. We are new to this. Any big issues with these rules? <br><br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Rashford, Canadice and the rest of BoD are doing an amazing job. They are doing so much more for the league than most of you seem to assume.</td></tr></table><br><br>Look i dont disagree they work hard as the BOD. I never said they were lazy etc etc. What im saying is, it is bad for a league to just punish teams that follow the rules. Fix them for later not retroactive. <br><br><br>Also, once again. I love how no one is noticing I have multiple times in this thread destroyed half the logic of this punishment that is was Pau and Van who orchestrated this.</td></tr></table><br><br>Some very good points in here.</td></tr></table><br><br>Editing this is an L + ratio + bald kinda move<br>

caltroit_red_flames · 2022-07-25, 01:05 PM - Word count:

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (leatherneckmike @ Jul 25 2022, 01:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (caltroit_red_flames @ Jul 25 2022, 01:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (leatherneckmike @ Jul 25 2022, 10:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zema @ Jul 25 2022, 05:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The biggest issue for me is that it hasn't been done in good faith. There might not be an explicit rule that has been broken, but you can rest well assured that Sydney would not like this to have been made common knowledge as they submitted their protection list. </td></tr></table><br><br>If we were trying to hide everything then why would I have told sparky exactly that i wasnt going to go there. If we were doing this in secret. Why wouldnt i have just told sparky id go so he would take me and not either LB or Cleetus who we left exposed. (the other expansion GM never reached out). This whole bad faith thing is very funny. <br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> A managers responsibility is not purely for the benefit of the team, but for the league as a whole. We work together to make sure that the league can grow into something even more amazing than it already is. Part of that is bringing up things that can be abused like this, and not try to abuse it. </td></tr></table><br><br>No, no it isnt. A managers responsibility is to the team. This isnt a collective big all fun sing and dance be happy love everyone. No, what we are trying to do is win titles. <br><br>Also by the way, the BOD wont bother to say Pau asked them about these things so they were very clearly stated as legal. (FA's open for expansion coming back). the BOD didnt have an issue till much later. They are also leaving out after the protection list got made they tried to make up a rule about no trade clauses and that got shot down by the GM's. <br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Some of the takes in this thread are completely failing to see the bigger picture. Do you want a better run league? Then help run it instead of trying to abuse the rules or cry about how unfair it is your team is getting punished for something that. This league is literally not even a year old. Things like this WILL happen and will probably keep happening. </td></tr></table><br><br>there are people in the BOD who have been apart of the bigger, more experienced, better run sim leagues who should know or could ask basic expansion rules like FA's not being allowed back. Instead of yelling at us for following the rules. how about you tell the board to make better rules for next time and to maybe go to a PBE or an ISFL expansion committee member who have been doing expansions for years and be like hey affiliated league. We are new to this. Any big issues with these rules? <br><br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1' id='QUOTE-WRAP'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Rashford, Canadice and the rest of BoD are doing an amazing job. They are doing so much more for the league than most of you seem to assume.</td></tr></table><br><br>Look i dont disagree they work hard as the BOD. I never said they were lazy etc etc. What im saying is, it is bad for a league to just punish teams that follow the rules. Fix them for later not retroactive. <br><br><br>Also, once again. I love how no one is noticing I have multiple times in this thread destroyed half the logic of this punishment that is was Pau and Van who orchestrated this.</td></tr></table><br><br>Some very good points in here.</td></tr></table><br><br>Editing this is an L + ratio + bald kinda move</td></tr></table><br>I was told by someone that you were taking the joke seriously and complained to someone about it so I took an effort to remove the content which I was told you found hurtful. I apologize for it.

**RashfordU** · 2022-07-25, 08:15 PM - Word count:

I don't really have much to add into this topic,<br>but it seems a lot of people have taken the post and blown it out into some large scale proportions and accusations. So I'd like to clarify the following.<br><br>We did not penalize Sydney and Catalunya because they have cohesive and committed locker-rooms (We applaud them for the unity they have), nor did we penalize them because their players were a pending FA (allowed within the rules, this is specifically what Sydney asked for clarification during the rule announcement to managers, and was the only thing they asked about), nor did we penalize them for the players stating to expansion managers that they wanted to retire (We wholeheartedly believe in Player Agency, it is, and must remain a focal point. See loans as a minor example: any player being loaned has to agree to it), nor did we penalize them because of the assets that the expansion teams obtained from them (the penalty that was given was on the table many days prior to the expansion draft taking place)<br><br><b>We penalized the two teams because they very specifically leveraged their players intentions to be able to retain as much as possible while simultaneously exposing as little as possible to the expansion teams. </b><br><br>To clarify (as many have stated "Sydney asked about doing this"). Sydney did not ask the board if it was okay to ask their players who would stay and who would go, and then create their expansion list in a way to weaponize those players intentions to offer as little as possible to the two new clubs.<br><br>As a league that takes a collaborative approach between managers and board members about the rules that we use and operate within, we expect and will continue to hold the managers, and ourselves to a high standard.<br>I hope this helps bring clarity if anyone needed it, <br>if not, feel free to DM me.<br>RashfordU#4119

4D Chess · 2022-07-26, 08:43 AM - Word count:

booba

Birdman · 2022-07-26, 07:17 PM - Word count:

Good move BoD