https://forum.simulationsoccer.com/ Sat, 02 May 2026 19:57:37 +0000 MyBB https://forum.simulationsoccer.com/showthread.php?tid=5110 Mon, 29 Apr 2024 17:24:47 +0100 Froste39]]> https://forum.simulationsoccer.com/showthread.php?tid=5110 Hello world!

The following is built upon a Discord discussion I recently had. I have been made aware that the topic has already been discussed in our community but I would like to bring it up again, since I see a lot of potential in it to improve the league for everyone involved, players, managers, board members.

This is not meant to be a whining post and I hope that my writing reflects that.

What I will be talking about is the dominant aspect of Pace/Speed in creating winning tactics and squads for the SSL.


Pace in FM


Speed/Pace has always been king in FM24 (and older versions) already, some people say it's a cheat code. 
I can sympathize as even in Singleplayer I usually target fast WB's and even if those suck everywhere else, they rake in 8's and 9's in grades every game. 
The only balance to it is that your players run out of stamina if they press like maniacs and run all the time.

In Single Player I would usually deploy strategies that limit running space, defending deep, banking on the opponent getting tired sooner or later, maybe even sub my faster players in late to capitalize on that.
Going against people on reddit who claim that you cannot strategize this, I have to say that I am able to play just fine into speedsters and countering opponents in Singleplayer saves.
I don't want to claim that the Match Engine is flawless here, but I also do not agree with people who say that adjustments and tactics are a giant placebo-scheme.

It certainly is a thin line if speedsters are more or less only kept in check through Stamina and you can still build/find players that skill Pace + Stamina and dominate with them, but they usually give up nearly everything else or cost 100 Million € which also is a way to balance them in "normal" playthroughs.


Pace in the SSL

However thereare several reasons why every problem speedsters or straegies that heavily rely on them have, is less meaningful or simply non-existent in our league:


1 - Stamina

The biggest reason is that everyone has a Stamina of 20 from the get-go.

A Stamina of 20 means players can keep their pace roughly till the ~80th minute, no problemo.

Tiring those players out now is no option anymore as they will not get tired nearly all game. They are free to run from offense to defense and back again over and over again which is frustrating as there is literally no tactical counter to this. In a normal playthrough this SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE. Maybe there is this one wonderkid who does it, but cannot do much else, okay.
Maybe that one player is a cheat code, maybe you are able to keep him in check with individual assignings, maybe not. But in the SSL there is high probability a whole offense of Barry Allen's is running at your defense, thanks to the way our player building works (which is apart from the Stamina thing not an issue imo).


2 - No mid-game adjustments

This is a very mild reason, because it is just a continuation of the Stamina problem. 
Yet, you are not able to make adjustments later in the game, for example subbing in your fast players to capitalize on a tired opposition. You cannot change your deep block to a high block to return the favor with high-speed pressing of their exhausted players, while yours are better rested due to a lower-intensity gameplan for the first ~60 minutes.


3 - No financial drawbacks

Speed needs money in FM. Usually your best graded players (which in most cases will be your Wingers/WB's) have the highest market value and become entitled to the biggest salary.
Since money is more or less a non-issue in the SSL we lose another self-regulating factor htat can keep teams in check that amass those types of players.


This means

Suddenly already dominant attributes become overpowered, because there is literally no counter to speedsters.
This means in my opinion that the only way to beat speedster teams is to stat check them.

This in return means the optimal way to be successful in this league is to invest in pace/speed, wether as a manager targeting these in the Draft/FA or as a player while building them, as there is literally no drawback.
You might argue that the teams on top of the league will always fluctuate due to the draft system that is established, but what keeps teams from drafting for speedsters and dominate the league after that? 
Isn't this just the same dominant strategy all the time, just switching out the names of the teams?

Is it really fun to base the leagues reward system on "Mom said it's my turn with the McGuffin now?"

There have been several job offerings for coaching positions in the near past and I would be interested into taking one, majorily for the tactical aspect of management. Being this limited in my teambuilding and strategy-crafting however, has kept me from applying so far.

Disclaimer:

I do not want to take away any credit the managers of the top teams in the SSL divisions rightfully deserve and I don't claim my opinion to be perfectly accurate, nevertheless I felt the need to voice it and opening it up for discussion.


Additionally, for the player side, this means that you are shoe-horned into skilling pace or be left behind. Since managers do not have flexible tactical options other than to overload on speedsters (if they want to win consistently) you either become one or are in trouble. In fact, I wouldn't even blame managers to nudge their players into building pace, even if that isn't what they intended to when building their player, because it wins them games.
Do not underestimate the roleplay-effect for sim leagues. It is a huge reason why these exist. You should be able to build what you want and have reasonable success with it, or at least earn yourself a spot in a team that is willing to dedicate a portion of their tactical approach to your style. (I am not talking about Strikers skilling Tackling and Marking here).

I want to compare this with other popular games and the "metagame". Any semi-competitive player will find a way to suck the fun out of a game for the sake of being sucessful. Popular examples are "hacking" in shooter games, only playing meta decks in card games, spamming infinite combos in fighting games.
Speed already is the "meta" in FM 24, but it has counters. We remove those counters, so you either embrace the "meta" and play for the cup or you don't which might lead to more happy players or LR in general, but you will not get a cup.

I would prefer that we try to reward buiild diversity more. Of course we will never be able to completely brush away any sort of "metagaming", since we are playing a game with alogrithms, not real life soccer, but we can strive to do the best we can.

But what can we do?

Now, there is only so much you can change in this league to keep it operational. 
It would for example be nonesense to force managers to be online/in-game during matchdays for adjustments as this is a hobby-league, not a full-time job. 

Additionally, touching the league's economy is also not something that I can see working, since we use our own "money" (TPE-system) to improve our players. Burdening managers to keep track of their ingame economy on top of all their other responsibilites is not recommended.

What we can change though is the most glaring issue, the Stamina.

Remove the 20 Stamina default option. 

The biggest counter-argument against this that I can currently think of, is that you will not see your player play for a whole game and that you have to rely on subs more as a manager.
Players might feel discouraged when they get drafted, but will either not play a game or only get subbed in.

However I think that this can also be a huge chance to improve the league and add more realism. How?

1. Dissolve the 2nd Division. 
2. Stock up the First one with 2-3 more teams
3. Establish an Academy again, completely autonomous from the league clubs with academy coaches and their own championship and events.
4. Let newgens play in the Academy even after being drafted like the SHL does it.
5. Newgens get called up automatically after some seasons or when their team needs them. They cannot be send down after that.

Of course new players might not get the chance to play in their first or second season, but here would be the chance to explore loans more, since managers will need to field a full roster to make use of subs.
This would also help to diversify teams more since there is a high chance the best team has to sub in some lower-end TPE subs. 

This can lead to whole new managemant strategies:
Do you explore a deep squad with a high average TPE? Do you go All-In and trade for high-TPE players, but lack depth?
With this, draft position and Free Agency become more important than ever and the management side of an Organization get's even more interactive than it already is.

As for the players themselves, I can only speak for me. I spend 1 season in Academy and 2 in the 2nd league, before I got called up.
In my case it was really motivating for me to become the best earner in my draft class and I was very happy when my efforts where recognized. 
If you got drafted as BPA and are a good earner, but your team won't call you up, e.g. because they are stacked at your position right now, this opens opportunities for loans or even transfers which boosts activity and engagement between the users further.

This is a win-win as the players get to see their dedication pay off with a starting gig, while the league is able to keep players invested in their created player, instead of retiring and starting over.
Additionally, with not having 20 Stamina guys everywhere, subs become more important (see above) which means everyone gets a time share and doesn't have to spend a whole matchday on the bench.
Also it creates motivation to keep updating as you have to fight for your starting job.

This also massively improves build diversity while not locking this option away entirely. (it is part of the game after all) You can still skill Stamina and Pace to 20, but you have to sacrifice other stuff to do so and it needs time, whichs means you have to stay engaged with the league to keep earning TPE.

Last words

I would really love to have a discussion on this and everybody chime in with their opinion. Again, I do not want to take any credit away from either managers, players or Board members, because all of you are amazing and you built something very special here. Exactly this is the reason why I want to preserve and improve on it, or at least provide some constructive input for future considerations regarding the league structure.

Obiligatory sorry for bad englando, not a native speaker]]> Hello world!

The following is built upon a Discord discussion I recently had. I have been made aware that the topic has already been discussed in our community but I would like to bring it up again, since I see a lot of potential in it to improve the league for everyone involved, players, managers, board members.

This is not meant to be a whining post and I hope that my writing reflects that.

What I will be talking about is the dominant aspect of Pace/Speed in creating winning tactics and squads for the SSL.


Pace in FM


Speed/Pace has always been king in FM24 (and older versions) already, some people say it's a cheat code. 
I can sympathize as even in Singleplayer I usually target fast WB's and even if those suck everywhere else, they rake in 8's and 9's in grades every game. 
The only balance to it is that your players run out of stamina if they press like maniacs and run all the time.

In Single Player I would usually deploy strategies that limit running space, defending deep, banking on the opponent getting tired sooner or later, maybe even sub my faster players in late to capitalize on that.
Going against people on reddit who claim that you cannot strategize this, I have to say that I am able to play just fine into speedsters and countering opponents in Singleplayer saves.
I don't want to claim that the Match Engine is flawless here, but I also do not agree with people who say that adjustments and tactics are a giant placebo-scheme.

It certainly is a thin line if speedsters are more or less only kept in check through Stamina and you can still build/find players that skill Pace + Stamina and dominate with them, but they usually give up nearly everything else or cost 100 Million € which also is a way to balance them in "normal" playthroughs.


Pace in the SSL

However thereare several reasons why every problem speedsters or straegies that heavily rely on them have, is less meaningful or simply non-existent in our league:


1 - Stamina

The biggest reason is that everyone has a Stamina of 20 from the get-go.

A Stamina of 20 means players can keep their pace roughly till the ~80th minute, no problemo.

Tiring those players out now is no option anymore as they will not get tired nearly all game. They are free to run from offense to defense and back again over and over again which is frustrating as there is literally no tactical counter to this. In a normal playthrough this SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE. Maybe there is this one wonderkid who does it, but cannot do much else, okay.
Maybe that one player is a cheat code, maybe you are able to keep him in check with individual assignings, maybe not. But in the SSL there is high probability a whole offense of Barry Allen's is running at your defense, thanks to the way our player building works (which is apart from the Stamina thing not an issue imo).


2 - No mid-game adjustments

This is a very mild reason, because it is just a continuation of the Stamina problem. 
Yet, you are not able to make adjustments later in the game, for example subbing in your fast players to capitalize on a tired opposition. You cannot change your deep block to a high block to return the favor with high-speed pressing of their exhausted players, while yours are better rested due to a lower-intensity gameplan for the first ~60 minutes.


3 - No financial drawbacks

Speed needs money in FM. Usually your best graded players (which in most cases will be your Wingers/WB's) have the highest market value and become entitled to the biggest salary.
Since money is more or less a non-issue in the SSL we lose another self-regulating factor htat can keep teams in check that amass those types of players.


This means

Suddenly already dominant attributes become overpowered, because there is literally no counter to speedsters.
This means in my opinion that the only way to beat speedster teams is to stat check them.

This in return means the optimal way to be successful in this league is to invest in pace/speed, wether as a manager targeting these in the Draft/FA or as a player while building them, as there is literally no drawback.
You might argue that the teams on top of the league will always fluctuate due to the draft system that is established, but what keeps teams from drafting for speedsters and dominate the league after that? 
Isn't this just the same dominant strategy all the time, just switching out the names of the teams?

Is it really fun to base the leagues reward system on "Mom said it's my turn with the McGuffin now?"

There have been several job offerings for coaching positions in the near past and I would be interested into taking one, majorily for the tactical aspect of management. Being this limited in my teambuilding and strategy-crafting however, has kept me from applying so far.

Disclaimer:

I do not want to take away any credit the managers of the top teams in the SSL divisions rightfully deserve and I don't claim my opinion to be perfectly accurate, nevertheless I felt the need to voice it and opening it up for discussion.


Additionally, for the player side, this means that you are shoe-horned into skilling pace or be left behind. Since managers do not have flexible tactical options other than to overload on speedsters (if they want to win consistently) you either become one or are in trouble. In fact, I wouldn't even blame managers to nudge their players into building pace, even if that isn't what they intended to when building their player, because it wins them games.
Do not underestimate the roleplay-effect for sim leagues. It is a huge reason why these exist. You should be able to build what you want and have reasonable success with it, or at least earn yourself a spot in a team that is willing to dedicate a portion of their tactical approach to your style. (I am not talking about Strikers skilling Tackling and Marking here).

I want to compare this with other popular games and the "metagame". Any semi-competitive player will find a way to suck the fun out of a game for the sake of being sucessful. Popular examples are "hacking" in shooter games, only playing meta decks in card games, spamming infinite combos in fighting games.
Speed already is the "meta" in FM 24, but it has counters. We remove those counters, so you either embrace the "meta" and play for the cup or you don't which might lead to more happy players or LR in general, but you will not get a cup.

I would prefer that we try to reward buiild diversity more. Of course we will never be able to completely brush away any sort of "metagaming", since we are playing a game with alogrithms, not real life soccer, but we can strive to do the best we can.

But what can we do?

Now, there is only so much you can change in this league to keep it operational. 
It would for example be nonesense to force managers to be online/in-game during matchdays for adjustments as this is a hobby-league, not a full-time job. 

Additionally, touching the league's economy is also not something that I can see working, since we use our own "money" (TPE-system) to improve our players. Burdening managers to keep track of their ingame economy on top of all their other responsibilites is not recommended.

What we can change though is the most glaring issue, the Stamina.

Remove the 20 Stamina default option. 

The biggest counter-argument against this that I can currently think of, is that you will not see your player play for a whole game and that you have to rely on subs more as a manager.
Players might feel discouraged when they get drafted, but will either not play a game or only get subbed in.

However I think that this can also be a huge chance to improve the league and add more realism. How?

1. Dissolve the 2nd Division. 
2. Stock up the First one with 2-3 more teams
3. Establish an Academy again, completely autonomous from the league clubs with academy coaches and their own championship and events.
4. Let newgens play in the Academy even after being drafted like the SHL does it.
5. Newgens get called up automatically after some seasons or when their team needs them. They cannot be send down after that.

Of course new players might not get the chance to play in their first or second season, but here would be the chance to explore loans more, since managers will need to field a full roster to make use of subs.
This would also help to diversify teams more since there is a high chance the best team has to sub in some lower-end TPE subs. 

This can lead to whole new managemant strategies:
Do you explore a deep squad with a high average TPE? Do you go All-In and trade for high-TPE players, but lack depth?
With this, draft position and Free Agency become more important than ever and the management side of an Organization get's even more interactive than it already is.

As for the players themselves, I can only speak for me. I spend 1 season in Academy and 2 in the 2nd league, before I got called up.
In my case it was really motivating for me to become the best earner in my draft class and I was very happy when my efforts where recognized. 
If you got drafted as BPA and are a good earner, but your team won't call you up, e.g. because they are stacked at your position right now, this opens opportunities for loans or even transfers which boosts activity and engagement between the users further.

This is a win-win as the players get to see their dedication pay off with a starting gig, while the league is able to keep players invested in their created player, instead of retiring and starting over.
Additionally, with not having 20 Stamina guys everywhere, subs become more important (see above) which means everyone gets a time share and doesn't have to spend a whole matchday on the bench.
Also it creates motivation to keep updating as you have to fight for your starting job.

This also massively improves build diversity while not locking this option away entirely. (it is part of the game after all) You can still skill Stamina and Pace to 20, but you have to sacrifice other stuff to do so and it needs time, whichs means you have to stay engaged with the league to keep earning TPE.

Last words

I would really love to have a discussion on this and everybody chime in with their opinion. Again, I do not want to take any credit away from either managers, players or Board members, because all of you are amazing and you built something very special here. Exactly this is the reason why I want to preserve and improve on it, or at least provide some constructive input for future considerations regarding the league structure.

Obiligatory sorry for bad englando, not a native speaker]]> https://forum.simulationsoccer.com/showthread.php?tid=4233 Mon, 14 Aug 2023 15:27:55 +0100 woog]]> https://forum.simulationsoccer.com/showthread.php?tid=4233 https://forum.simulationsoccer.com/showthread.php?tid=1259 Tue, 26 Apr 2022 01:49:34 +0100 omniscius]]> https://forum.simulationsoccer.com/showthread.php?tid=1259